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Nice to come here to exchange views on everything in English. Wish to make friends with you all. Wish you a happy and properous life.
This is the other English blog of mine. Welcome to have a visit:http://scoundrel1972.blog.sohu.com/
On Democracy
2008-02-14 23:04:08 / 个人分类:talk with the heaven
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TAG: democracy
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-19 08:39:21
- I have to admit that i have been a fool most of the time. but i do want to become wiser under your guidance. hahahhahaha
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Monica1981
发布于2008-02-18 22:12:06
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To Man,
Yes, I agree..He didn't get it....
To piggy, you have a different brain than us....so I am not going to explain...
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-18 12:59:11
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What do you mean that i didn't get it?
ahahahhahah
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Manzana
发布于2008-02-18 11:09:30
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to S: you didn't get it...
to Monica: I agree that it's good that more and more westerners care about China. Talking with each other, we will better understand each other.
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-17 21:33:22
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Do you mean that obscurantism works a lot in the countryside? People from the countryside can get an education so long as he can afford it and can pass the challenging entrance exam into a high school.
I am from the countryside. It is on my own effort and i got a university education and i get the my present job.
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Monica1981
发布于2008-02-17 21:19:49
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I agree...your 0.8 million farmers may not have a clue what democracy really is....plus, the CCP won't teach them the truth....
they possibly think they are living in a democratic country anyway...
you want a better education system, you need democracy...but to achieve democracy, you need a better education system...
tough job in China...man...
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-17 14:35:33
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Thousands of years of feudal tradition has left us so many things that are not to be eradicated instantly.
Everyone welcomes democracy but no one knows how to begin in a better way.
However, I am from the countryside and i know the people's lives have improved a lot since the present regime took power. No matter in what a situation they are in now, they have improved a lot.
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-17 14:31:28
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To Monica,
words just failed me when I tried to say something. I am just in no position to say or declare. situations are different and you should take into consideration when you are judging things.
we are only ordinary citizens and we are supposed to do what an ordinary citizen is supposed to do.
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Monica1981
发布于2008-02-17 00:13:30
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I also feel it is quite funny...
Piggy is trying so hard to build a good image of China....and Man bursted all your bubbles....
Somehow....it ends up Man and I talk about the problems in China.....so far away from your original intention.....
funny.....
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Monica1981
发布于2008-02-17 00:09:42
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Piggy,
our democracy may not be suitable for China right now...but Man has proved that the western democratic philosophy can change a person's mind.....
Your country need people like Man...but unfortunately, most of your students in NZ try so hard to stay here but not to go back to their own country.......and meanwhile, Ray123 is showing his country concept......so SAD.....
I believe China will achieve democracy in future....But when 80% of your people all have brains like Man's......
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Monica1981
发布于2008-02-17 00:01:23
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That’s another reason why when I hear any foreigner saying that China needs democracy, I would get bothered. They do not know a thing about Chinese people. If a foreigner read this, s/he may argue that education will help. But they do not know what kind of education we have in China.
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I disagree.....we are not Chinese but it doesn't mean we know nothing about China....
At least, we have hundreds of independent medias...but Chinese don't.....
Before you turn up here, Piggy, Teacher Kathy (not Bath Towel Kathy) and I have discussed the problem in your current education....
So Let me correct your words:
Right Education will help China....not your current education!
That's why you need to change the education system in China....but the problem is as a country which is totally controlled by the CCP, individuals cannot improve your education system easily.....that's why some westerners believe that a democratic system in China will solve some problems fundamentally......
Don't just get pissed-off if a westerner has a say on your country.....we care about your country, which is always better than we don't care....
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Monica1981
发布于2008-02-16 23:52:52
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Man,
I am very pleased that you have seen so many problems in China not like most Chinese people who only boost up their economy and GDP...
Taiwan problem? Yes, it is not up to the Chinese but up to the CCP since they control the army.But individual voice is important ...at least, it shows not all Chinese are home-schooled by the CCP....
And remember, Man, you are different...if you have been studying in China and never had oversea experiences, I don't think you will say what you just said today......
I have clearly shown my opinions that China should achieve democracy gradually or learn from Singapore.....but NOT RIGHT NOW.....I also give supportive points that why China cannot achieve its democracy now and what areas the CCP should focus on....e.g. improve the law system.......
Everyone cheers up how much China has improved its economy.....but thinking about your problems is more important....and that's how we improve our country in NZ....
If all the Chinese oversea students can go back to China after their study, China will develop better and faster....they have seen more about the world and they have heard different voices,
so they will be able to tell the real problems in China....
Imagine after a few years, your president is a person who has been studied overseas for 10 years and can speak perfect English......I bet even without democracy, China will become another Singapore......
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-16 15:39:21
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To Manzana,
wow, you know a lot about the present situations in China. I think i will have to give it careful thought again and then i can respond to you.
i admire your intelligence in understanding and analysis.
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Manzana
发布于2008-02-16 07:14:39
- and Taiwan issue again?? Monica you have to understand that in China the government won't ask us for our opinion about the issue. War or no war, it's not up to Chinese people. No one wants war, I mean indidual. but politics is politics. it's more complicated...
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Manzana
发布于2008-02-16 07:10:50
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Maybe we shall think about why this moral disorder? China started to change with Deng’s idea of reform and opening up. Deng said:’ No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat.” Maybe he was right by saying so at his time when any attempt to develop national economy would be accused as capitalism tendencies. But the spreading of this saying definitely started to erode our country’s moral foundation, which had been already very weak after the Cultural Revolution during which religious beliefs and Confucian moral concepts were all beaten down. The whole nation begun to aim at economic development and achievements, at national and personal level and we suddenly had nothing to fear or worry about since white and black are all at our use, with justification.
So we have everything pirate, that’s ok; the mines’ owners send the workers underground without proper protection, that’s happening everywhere; citizens and companies do tax dodging, that’s understandable and who cares about the poor and the disadvantaged group? Scoundrel1972 said that we Chinese are no longer “the Patient of East Asia”. Where is the future of a nation full of people who are physically well formed but morally ill, “calloused” and “numb” as described by Mr. Lu Xun decades ago?
That’s another reason why when I hear any foreigner saying that China needs democracy, I would get bothered. They do not know a thing about Chinese people. If a foreigner read this, s/he may argue that education will help. But they do not know what kind of education we have in China. Education now is seen by many as a way to get rich quicker: good preliminary school, good middle and high school then to a top 10 university, and you will have your ticket to be “white collar” or “little capitalists”. At school, they do not teach you how to respect others (only respect to the authority), they do not help you to think independently so that you will not be comfortable to challenge authorities, your opinions and point of view are not important as long as you give RIGHT answers. Doing that you are a good student and will have your degree to get out there on to the society and make your money. This kind of education is not good to prepare people for democracy.
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Manzana
发布于2008-02-16 07:10:24
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In China when people get together, they ask each other how much money they earn, how many apartments they purchased, what car they drive. They are making economic comparisons. So if they have more money than others, they’d feel very proud and happy; if others have more fortune than they do, they will be sad and immediately try other ways to make more fortune. Have you ever seen in China that people get together to talk about our education, what the government shall balance the gap between the poor and the rich, issues that do not have to do about how one can get improved economically, but are important for our society in which we are all members and will suffer if bad things happen to the economic or whatever system in it? If there are such people, others will see them as blockheads. They would think that these people are wasting their time and instead of talking about this nonsense, they’d rather go and try to earn more money.
So now in China we have these three groups of people, the rich, the poor and the in between. The third group is divided into two subgroups, one calls themselves “white collar” to distinguish themselves from the “peasant workers” and low income groups with sense of superiority and the other labels themselves with “little capitalists”, they think they are the elite of the society, with money and fine tastes. People are so excited to mark social class and the benchmark is money. The group in between dislike the poor and look down on them while they envy the rich, the richer and will try whatever to get richer and upgrade their social class. People are selfish, only think about money and one’s own development/benefits. They do not care about the poor and/or the poorer, they do not think about others.
So we do have economic prosperity, but came along with it, a moral disorder, a spiritual emptiness and lack of basic human concern.
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Manzana
发布于2008-02-16 07:09:56
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But when the Real Estate folks are busy counting their revenues, what’s happening to common people who need to buy an apartment to live in? I’ve heard that in Beijing new graduates from college are competing for job with a monthly salary of RMB 1,500.00 or 2,000.00. They live on that salary, payroll to payroll. So when are they gonna be able to save enough money to buy even one square meter??? On top of that, the prices of eggs, pork, other kind of meat, gas etc in China rose dramatically in China during 2007. The rich won’t care. But how about the poor and common people? Compared to the apartment price of RMB 7,825 per square meter in 2006, common people were and are less possible to be able to afford an apartment in 2007 and 2008. This “prosperity” did not eliminate the “shared poverty”, rather if we cheat on ourselves and let this situation continue, we won’t have any chance to see the wealth to be shared. So instead of saying good things about this prosperity, we need to urge our government to work hard on reducing the gap between the poor and the rich.
Maybe I shall correct myself. New graduates from college, with the monthly salary they earn, do not fall in the category of “the poor” in China. What about the 70-80% of our population who live in rural areas? Those who work their land and when there is no many things to do at home, they go to big cities to work as temporary construction workers, those called by many people living in cities as “peasant workers” ? And those who are also in rural areas but did not have even a chance to see the outside world? They may be living the very same way that their fathers and grandfathers lived. What does this prosperity and stability mean to them?
Many people in China say that it’s natural for the development to go gradually. Maybe that is right in theory. But what is wrong here is their indifference and their taking it for granted. People who got rich first (those real rich guys) and those who are also enjoying the so called “prosperity” (people who live in cities), most of them, only think about how to get richer themselves. And they ignore the true realities in our society and the bad situations in which many other Chinese are suffering.
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Manzana
发布于2008-02-16 07:09:23
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To scoundrel1972:
Robbery is taking place everywhere. That article in my blog, I wrote it not to show how dangerous Mexico City is. It’s just a story. And I do not agree with you in that Chinese people are living a very safe life all over the country. I don’t know where you live in China but I have lived in Guangzhou and Shenzhen. Those are not safe cities. I think the local governments of these two cities need to work more hard on the issue. I believe that there are more other cities in our country which are facing the same safety problem. I do not understand, by the way, why you associated safety issue with democracy in your article. I do not see any link between them.
And then you talked about China’s fast economic development, concluding that in China everyone’s life has been improved during this development. You mentioned food and housing as two main indicators. I’d like to share with you some of my thoughts and concerns about this “economic prosperity” in our country.
When Deng promoted his reform and opening up policy, he said: "Socialism is not the same as shared poverty." and "Some must get rich first!" His idea was that some people and regions would be encouraged to get rich first and others would be brought along. However, what's happening now is not what he exactly expected to see when he implemented the policy. Some did get very rich but what they are doing now is simply try to get richer and they seem to forget the essence of Deng’s policy from which they greatly benefited. The gap between the rich and the poor, in China, is huge and I do not think that the government is doing enough to reduce the difference.
Talking about the housing price, let’s do some numbers. On the list of China top 10 richest people in the year 2007, I found the name of three whose business is in real estate. The top one on that list is a 26-year old young lady who is running her family real estate business, valued at RMB 130 billon. It’s important to mention that none of these three were on the list of China top 10 richest people in the previous two years, 2005 and 2006. So people in real estate they were able to grow their wealth at an astonishing speed during the years 2005, 2006 and 2007. From 2004 to 2006, in Beijing, newly built apartments average price increased by 42% and reached at RMB 7,825 by the third quarter of 2006. However by the end of Nov. 2007, people had to pay an average of RMB 15,267 per square meter to buy apartments in the city. Price has been going up at higher speed in Shanghai and Shenzhen.
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-15 23:24:56
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To Man,
I don't think i have done anything wrong. I have only cited what is in your article to support my view. It is irrelevant to what you intended to tell. I am only showing my own feelings when i read your article.
Sorry if you think i have intentionally misunderstood your idea.
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scoundrel1972
发布于2008-02-15 23:22:18
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To Monica,
You have written so long an essay on democracy. hahhah
thank you for you explanation. I feel that it is difficult for us to reach an agreement in that matter. let's just put it aside and stick to those we have common interest in,ok?
